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Indifference?
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Indifference? Reply with quote

When some people are fed up with thinking or they want the other side to think more, they show indifference.
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Clive
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert M. Hutchins:

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

-------------------------

Joan Vinge:

Indifference is the strongest force in the universe. It makes everything it touches meaningless. Love and hate don't stand a chance against it.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at this from another perspective, some people become apathetic and indifferent when thinking proves to be useless.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Indifference? Reply with quote

Whatever its reasons, indifference tends to be a negative attitude which has harmed the human society in many ways. Its exmaples are visibe even in the present times where the seemingly most responsible states and institutions are showing indifferene and causing restlessness in the world.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ehsan, you and I may think the killing and destruction in the war in Iraq and Afganistan is terrible; those events effect the citizens of our two countries directly. The Chinese and citizens of most other countries may be indifferent, for they have their own problems.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Indifference? Reply with quote

Yes Dave, you are right but we will have to differentiate between interference, non-interference and indifference.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever the difference might be, Ehsan – the result is the same. The hurricane doesn't consider the victims.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:58 am    Post subject: Indifference? Reply with quote

Harry you are justified in saying that whatever the reasons, the result is the same yet we have to judge the causes of the effect and if possible to control them. If we suceed, the result might not be the same.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But history isn’t like the practice of medicine, Ehsan. We don’t learn from the mistakes of history other than to find new ways of making them.

It is said that if we don’t learn from the mistakes of history we are doomed to make them again ... well, I submit that even if we do learn we are doomed to make them again. I see nothing in the last 5000 years that suggests we’ve learned anything.

Maybe 'acceptance' is a better word than 'indifference.'
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: Indifference? Reply with quote

Harry, do you mean we should go on accepting everything as it happens because it has happened. And there should be no approach to make the things correct. Man has not been engaged in war for 5000 years but since its creation. Probably that is innate in him. Yet this innate urge has been diverted in many ways and the calamities have been postponed if not avoided. Interference in others affairs is a negative virtue yet it shows some interest in others. Not interference is to leave others and allow them to settle their own affairs. It is a positive approach. But, acceptance and indifference both are cousin to each others and both are negative virtues. Of these two indifference is worse because it does not show any interest, positive or negative, to others. If we promulgate the principle of acceptance then there would be no need of dialogue, discussion and compromise because we will have to be ruled by the principle of “Might is right’, there will be no need of democracy or any system to improve the affairs of the world.
Dave has given a very good comment on one of my poems asking if there is nothing more beyond talking or writing of war. What is your opinion about it? Will there be some positive change if we write about the simplicities of life and beauty of nature and make the minimum mention of the theme of war and to bring out the goodness in human beings which is lying damped within him and which is not provided the occasion of an out let by the politicians.
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Clive
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The people that spread hatred and violence around the world are not white, black, brown, yellow or red they are all the above but not because of their colour. They do evil because they are evil. If a country gets a great deal on oil the person doing the deal for the seller has done his country men wrong, the person dealing for a better price has not.

The arms dealers are the dealers of death and unrest, for with out friction and hatred the sale of bullets would be way down, surprisingly it is these stocks that do very very well. I would have to think that the proliferation of arms primarily the ak-47, the real weapon of mass destruction is in the hands of many. It all comes back to law and order; in Canada if you have an ak-47 you will be arrested and jailed, no one may own them. But there are many people against each other all over the world, and many want to control rule and will fight to get it or should I say steel it, democracy from the people. I believe in democracy even if it does go wrong as ours did - so we got a new government that is listening to the people and doing his job doing things like tax breaks to all plus breaks and incentives for farmers to grow crops to get going on bio-fuel, and a 4 % increase of ethanol in all gasoline.

When religion and politics are mixed they make a muddy brew. If you look at the countries that have separated religion from politics you will find better order to society.

Lets face it, the Middle East has had goggles (as in googolplex) of money and managed to siphon it off to the few. The money that has been generated has not fallen in to the social system and infrastructure leaving the people real frustrated and pissed off.

By having so many borders all over the world that needed defending all the energy of the human spirit has been spent on defending and/or invading and there is a lot of money in arms, so it becomes self perpetuating.
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Linda
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Indifference? Reply with quote

ehsan elahi ehsan wrote:
...Will there be some positive change if we write about the simplicities of life and beauty of nature and make the minimum mention of the theme of war and to bring out the goodness in human beings which is lying damped within him and which is not provided the occasion of an outlet by the politicians.


Good thought, Ehsan. But, I think we can get carried away with looking at the forest and not see the trees. We (as writers I mean) cannot hope to have more than a minimal impact on world wars, heavy political movements, etc; however, a poem or a short story that effectively touches the emotion of man (even one emotion and even one man) can have eternal impact.

Solomon said, "Take us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes." It's the little compromises that lead to big problems...forgetting to stop and see (write about, acknowledge) the beauty of one thought, the pain of one lonely man, the joy of one single child...Foxes in search of food can enter a grape orchard and destroy the crop. However, the little foxes (too small to reach the grapes) will chew on the vines and destroy the vine. Instead of losing one crop, the farmer can lose his vine which can be more disastrous.

So, my vote, as a writer, is to remember the little things, and write about the ordinary...this is where the majority live...and we’ll have the biggest impact on the whole.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>Harry, do you mean we should go on accepting everything as it happens because it has happened.<<

What good would it do not to accept it, Ehsan? It's history – it has to accepted. It shouldn't have happened but it did, the little boy did wear a belt of dynamite when he walked into the Jewish delicatessen. The 'smart' bomb somehow missed the Taliban headquarters and found its way into a wedding ceremony. The roadside bomb that was meant to detonate under the "Hummer" somehow exploded under the school bus. We are stupid, blundering, murderous imbeciles trying to play God.

We are writers and words are all the ammunition we have, let us use them wisely.
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Linda
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry wrote:
... It shouldn't have happened but it did, the little boy did wear a belt of dynamite when he walked into the Jewish delicatessen. The 'smart' bomb somehow missed the Taliban headquarters and found its way into a wedding ceremony. The roadside bomb that was meant to detonate under the "Hummer" somehow exploded under the school bus. .... We are writers and words are all the ammunition we have, let us use them wisely.


A perfect illustration to the point I was trying to make...the little bit of information provided in this piece, Harry, moved me to the point of tears...but long, drawn out discussions of politics and warfare...well, my mind can't wrap around it...doesn't want to actually! Indifferent? Not really…just aware of the improbability of hearing one little voice above the roar of an ocean of voices…
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the way this conversation is going. I remember not long ago a guest posted a comment about some of the threads here a the voice were too heavy. And now Linda, you say your mind cannot wrap around what Harry said. Neither can mine. How can any mind comprehend the destruction, intended and unintended.

We become like the real soldiers in real foxholes, shellshocked, and so we become indifferent to all that's happening in order to protect the little sanity that remains in us.
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, that was I who just posted.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one has invited me to speak at the UN. The newspapers ignore my 'letters to the editor' and if I stand on a soapbox in the park and preach to the people walking by, they ignore me. The pigeons pay more attention.

In short, there is nothing more I can do.

With my remaining strength I will plant my tomatoes and watch them ripen on the vine and wonder if the world will still be here when they're ready to eat.

A pleasant Memorial Day to all. (Memorial Day is a national holiday in the United States. It honors all our soldiers who have died to bring freedom to the world.)
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Linda
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry wrote:
...With my remaining strength I will plant my tomatoes and watch them ripen on the vine and wonder if the world will still be here when they're ready to eat.

A pleasant Memorial Day to all. (Memorial Day is a national holiday in the United States. It honors all our soldiers who have died to bring freedom to the world.)


Those 60 words tell me more about the state of our union than 10,000 words carefully composed, professionally edited and politically performed before our nation's largest audience...

This weekend, I choose to honor my father...a gentle man and a gentleman, and a world war II veteran...although he carried to his grave a distrust of the Japanese, a distrust so deep that no amount of education or computer technology could erase...he was still the greatest man in my life!

Linda
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Linda
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
...And now Linda, you say your mind cannot wrap around what Harry said. Neither can mine. How can any mind comprehend the destruction, intended and unintended...


Dave, I agree with part of what you are saying, but I think you misunderstood my statement. My mind had no problem relating to Harry's post...my problem is with lengthy political debates that seem to go around in circles and serve only to promote (or demote IMHO) the mentality of the speaker....

We are all writers on this forum...or wanna be's (myself included). I think when the discussions become too heavy (as previously mentioned) perhaps we need to back off and examine our positions...what exactly are we trying to promote? Global reasoning to what end?
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Last edited by Linda on Fri May 26, 2006 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Heidi
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: global reasoning Reply with quote

Very interesting Linda. Happy Memorial Day to all! I suppose I have many to remember on that front. However back to the topic at hand, I agree with some of you that say what some people have is more acceptance than indifference. As Harry said when we do speak out we are ignored therefore some of us just accept that we cannot change some people's minds or give up all together. But perhaps if we can all change a few people's minds then that will spread and a greater change will be brought about (or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part!) Wink
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Linda
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heidi wrote:
… perhaps if we can all change a few people's minds then that will spread and a greater change will be brought about (or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part!) Wink


I don’t think it’s wishful thinking, Heidi. I think you have a valid solution, but, lengthy political tirades are not working. And, I still feel they are designed more to promote the speaker than present a solution. We, as writers, should be above that. If this is a “writer’s forum”, why are we allowing it to smoother…to die beneath boring “heavy” threads… I know I may be stepping out on a limb here, but does anyone besides me feel this is happening? I feel like I’m in a sinking ship..

Harry wrote:
…It's history – it has to accepted. It shouldn't have happened but it did, the little boy did wear a belt of dynamite when he walked into the Jewish delicatessen. The 'smart' bomb somehow missed the Taliban headquarters and found its way into a wedding ceremony. The roadside bomb that was meant to detonate under the "Hummer" somehow exploded under the school bus. …We are writers and words are all the ammunition we have, let us use them wisely.


Here’s the solution. We are writers…not politicians. Find the emotion common to all, then, express (or write or present) that emotion in a way that will touch (not bore) the human heart… Maybe the reason some people (writers, I mean) appear to have accepted all manner of adversity (or become indifferent to it) is because they have simply forgotten the power of a well written manuscript…one that is NOT political in nature, but humane. Come on…help me here. We’re writers…let’s write our way out of this (pardon the cliché) sinking ship.

Linda
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda, you've opened this up and I don't know where to begin, so forgive me if I ramble. I believe I'm one of those who participates in these heavy discussions. It may be my early education in engineering and business that has caused me to look at problems as being solvable. Yes, if only we can dig deep enough and explore in great depth the problems we can lick em. So I am willing to discuss an issue as deep as the next guy, and sometimes I probe too far.

Probing and searching like this can be very disturbing, not very artistic! One thing I have learned is when it comes to complex issues of war, religion . . . and even love . . . nobody, in the history of the world, has come up with the solutions.

Maby writers can't solve the problems, but neither can religious leaders, politicians, or philosophers. So as an exercise we discuss these heavy issues, and sometimes after discussing them too much we become depressed.

So belive me. When I get into a discussion it is not to promote myself and my ideas, it is to explore the issue at hand. Now this may be boring as the discussion becomes too heavy, and I often wondered if that is freightening people away from the forums. But the Global Reasoning forum is only one of many here at the Voice, so I don't think this should scare people from participating on the other forums.

I wonder what you and others think about this.
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Linda
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

If this is what the Writer's Voice has become (a platform for heavy political discussions), then forgive me for speaking my mind, and carry on...as for being an Engineer...well, I work with some of the best...most of them are brilliant in their field of research, but if you want to know the truth...only two of them have any skill in writing...and they are not afraid to admit it.

I'm not saying that we as writers have all the solutions to the world problems...far from it...I'm just hoping some one will see the light and try to make this site alittle more appealing to writers...use a little creativity...if you want political platforms...give us another story about a reporter...make it interesting...when I first found the Voice...about 7 years ago, the encouragement I received from reviews propelled me forward...there were several qualified readers on the Voice then and a rating method that was highly encouraging, and there were no political anythings...it was a writers world...I'm sorry to say, but I think that's dying.

Dave, please don't take anything I've said personal. I quit reading the Global Reasoning Forum a long time ago...it simple lost its appeal to me as writer when it became so bogged down with heavy debate. So, how could I be pointing my finger at anyone…However, I do wonder if anyone has noticed how many people log on to the Voice, sign up, and we never hear from them again. Why? Could it be they simply are not finding what they thought they would find here?

Now, I've spoken my two cents. Carry on, best wishes, and I hope I see you around in print somewhere. As for me, I'm going to enjoy the rest of my Memorial Day weekend....and finish the short story I'm working on...heck, I might even throw in a few political conversations…just to stir things up a bit. Wink


Linda
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda, I agree with you that the Voice should be primarily a place for writers to display their work and discuss the art and craft of writing. We should do everything to encourage visitors to participate in the creative forums and to discuss the art and craft of writing.

As I recall, a few years back the Voice leaned too heavily towards religion and that created a major change. It's stimulating to discuss religion and politics in depth with intelligent, interesting, open-minded people, yet those public discussions can turn off many people.

If these heavy political discussions at Global Reasoning are turning traffic away from the Voice and discouraging participation in other forums at the Writers Voice, then it would be a good idea to close this forum. As you say, we can continue to express our feelings about life, love and other issues in our poetry, fiction, and essays.

I'm with you. More creative writing and less talking about politics! Smile
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Linda
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, I am so reluctant to respond further...however, I think your previous post reflects the engineer in you...a good one! One comment...I'm not so sure the Global Reasoning forum has turned people off...actually I doubt if serious writers even read it….... there’s too much out there to read... most writers are going to look for things that illustrate the gender of writing they are interested in first, then venture to others areas…and this normally happens much later in their participation. What I do think is that the forum has simply evolved (from indifference or even acceptance) into something that is (at present) off-balancing the site.


Balance is the key word. If this is still a writer's site...then visit around some. Would you attempt to build or reconstruct a building without knowledge of how one is constructed? What do we currently have to offer creative minds? What do other sites offer them? Which ones have the highest traffic? What do we (or Clive) want from the site. When you've done this...you may know where you're going and you may hope to have a reasonable amount of success.

On the other hand, this (the current status of the Voice), may be all that's wanted from the engineer and, consequently, the construction crew.

And now, my dear friend, I have a little six year old waiting impatiently for maw maw to quit fooling around with that computer and come outside with him. (BTW, he ate his breakfast in the swing under the big oak!)
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