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Bucho
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Too Late? Reply with quote

Is it too late for Global Reasoning to bring peace to Iraq?
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Paul Grimsley
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only problem is getting global reasoning on the plane with all the other baggage that people who "try to sort it out" take over there with them. I think it looks likely that it's going to be like Northern Ireland all over again. how exactly do you withdraw the troops now without adding further to the collapse? i don't think anyone trusts anyone at the moment and that is the situation Saddam Hussein fostered in order to keep people in line. I think the politicians over there are (sorry to sound cyncial) only over there to further their interests at home and do very little except visit the troops and leave knowing as much about as iraq as they did before they went.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject: Too Late? Reply with quote

Paul, We have first to reap what we have sown.
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Paul Grimsley
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ehsan, that sounds like a very passive attitude -- we helped cause the trouble and we can't really abandon onnocent Iraqis to their deaths. We have to help them build a new country.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:23 pm    Post subject: Too Late? Reply with quote

Paul, it is very good to help others. But helping means to assist others in what they want, not what we want.
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Bucho
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ecxuse me for asking a stupid question, but how do you determine what a group of other people want to do?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bucho

The way we're doing it it is by assuming every Iraqi wants to live like an American. The politicians making these decisions don't even know what it's like to live like an American. They are the sons and daughters of the privileged class. They've lived in sealed bubbles and avoided military service and have started their careers on the top rung of the ladder. Naturally they feel they know exactly how an Iraqi wants to live.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Too Late? Reply with quote

Bucho, Harry has answered to your question. I would add:

When one suffers in any way, he tells you of his sufferings if you ask him selflessly.
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Bucho
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ehsan, I can understand what you mean when you talk about one person: when one person suffers or is unhappy with the situation in his country he tells you of his sufferings and it is clear. But when you have millions of people all with different wants, needs, and religious preferences how do you know what they all want.

Harry, I've been tapping into Dave as he reads and watches the news about Iraq. The way I understand it is not everybody in America, not even all politicians, assumes everybody in the world wants to live like an American. Iraquis can't even agree how they want to live.
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Paul Grimsley
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have to build a framework that allows different lifestyles to co-exist
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly, Paul. Is there any place in this world where that framework exists. For all its faults, the U.S. has as good a framework as any place around. Does anybody know of a better place?
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Clive
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Well I was going to say Canada Reply with quote

Well I was going to say Canada with our multi cultural environment. Unfortunately we are running in to problems. It has been proposed that Syariah law (Sharī'ah, Shari'a, Shariah or Syariah) ((is the Arabic word for Islamic law)) be introduced to deal with legal problems for the Islamic cultures in Canada. Can any nation have more then one law and if so does it denigrate the existing laws in the future for that country? On talk show radio phone in programs many men say it is good but all the women that phoned in said their where here in Canada to escape that type of law. What if the new laws go against the currant laws of the country?

We have changed many of our traditions to accommodate other cultures and it begins to cause upset to those that have to give up their countries culture to accommodate the other.

Example - the R.C.M.P Ė they have a very strict dress code but had to change it to allow turbans to be worn on the job, or the ruling that only sheik kids can carry knives in to class rooms in the form of the kirpan, which is not much of a knife. But what happens when a culture says that it must carry its AK-47 at all times to defend its religion and culture, do we allow that.

I think that when mixing cultures there has to be give and take on both sides but the big problem is how much to give and how much to take.

It is a very complex situation to balance when all sides want their way.

I do believe that when a person leaves their country because their life is in danger or the government of that country is brutal that they should expect to have to make some changes to their life to fit in.
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Bucho
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We dogs do not have the complex problems that people have. This is really the biggest problem than faces humanity, isn't it. How can the billions of you people in the world (who have different wants and needs, likes and dislikes, religions and cultures, and physical and mental abilities) get along with each other? We have the same issues here accross the border in the U.S.

Our system slowly allows changes in the laws and equal rights for all people. Eshan, pointed out earlier in another discussion that Islam is the law of the land and supercedes man's laws for a nation. It is unacceptable here for any religion to dominate individual freedom.

How can this conflict of ideas be worked out?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of dog are you! When your Master speaks do you not obey?
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Paul Grimsley
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the problems start to arise when a law is changed to allow the practice of a certain culture's beliefs and that belief runs against what is held to be common-sensical in the dominant culture. people see this a preferential treatment and treatment that has detrimental effects on the majority. i think to help ease the tension these exceptions to the law either need to be removed, refined so they don't appear as favouritism, or explained to both parties -- those allowed them that these are a privilege and not a right, and those not included in the minority group need to see that allowing certain practices is not going to erode their way of life.
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Dark_crystal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to say yes. The world is very corrupt right now it seems. Things are going way out of control in our world with many issues around the world. What happens in our future only is decided as to what people's hearts and minds say in the future.
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Bucho
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry, my master is a bit odd. He doesn't give me orders and let's me do whatever I want to do. So I don't even have to pretend that I'm obeying him.

He doesn't care if I agree with him and he admits that he hasn't figured out the solutions to the world's problems. Dave is also stubborn and mostly disagrees with what others say are the solutions to human problems.

He is optomistic [a word I'm beginning to understand} that as long as people discuss things they'll be too busy to screw up things.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject: Too Late? Reply with quote

I had used “one” symbolically and not in the sense of “an individual”.
The foreigners who have been serving in the West, are attracted mainly by good and well-paid employment, not for the fear of the laws of their countries. It is evident that the Asians, including the Muslims, do abide to the laws of that country and have been living peacefully. They have positively contributed to the economic growth of that country in which they are living.

It is better if we allow the inhabitants of a state to make a frame work for themselves. If we impose a framework, howsoever good it may look like, that might not be acceptable as it would be treated as an interference to their internl affairs.

In Iraq what has been done was based on selfish motives. It was not a selfless help. The majority of the Iraqis look to America and her allies as occupants, not the helpers. People wanted to get rid of dictatorship (as it is assumed) but in some reasonable way. The U.N.O and most of the countries of the world warned America against an attack on Iraq, but the U.N.O. and the majority of the world was altogether ignored. Iraq was attacked on the pretext of having weapons of mass destruction. After the killing of hundred of innocent people, it came out that the report was wrong.

Now America is in deep waters. Neither it can leave Iraq in the situation created by it not it can stay there for an unlimited period. The blind killing from both sides would continue and every calamity will give birth to a new calamity. Even now, the situation can be controlled if U.N.O. and the other major countries are asked to help solving the problem. This is what global reasoning demands. But when the matter comes to this, the problems of egotism, hegemony, material interests raise their head. Out of all this situation, the victims are the common and innocent people of Iraq. Nearly the same practice is going on in Afghanistan. Both the countries are being run on add-hoc basis and the crutches which they are being given soon be eaten up by rust or white ants.

There is no use of screwing up the things, it is better to settle up the matters.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the matter of Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban, it was classed as the very worst country in the entire world in which to live. It is fact that terrorist training camps existed there.

I guess we have to ask if a country is selling poison in the form of heroin and terror to the rest of the world and the people ruling the country will not deal with it Ė but support it, then there is a right to have it dealt with. In Iraq the people may not support the war but I believe that the people of Afghanistan do appreciate the liberation from the Taliban.

I remember an interview with a Taliban leader Ė when he was asked why they donít play soccer in the stadium that was built for them he replied - build us a place to execute people and we will use that space for soccer. I think if you ask any women from Afghanistan what they thought of the Taliban destroying the rights of the women to work and walk freely down the street they would express hatred for the Taliban. The Taliban destroyed the rights of the women to teach and be nurses and now there are new hopes for the people there. With more women teaching and working as nurses the children can be educated to see there is more then being a human bomb for the evil terrorist organisations. But the insurgents coming from all over having a different motive and it is not freedom for the people. The Taliban where dedicated to having an uneducated population of desperate people because they are the best targets to do their evil with little brain washing about the evil west.

There is nothing new about one group from the Middle East attacking another based on their religious beliefs it has been going on since the dawn of time. I do believe that the USA has weakened Iraq and Iran may take another shot at conquering it after the USA move out There has always been war in the Middle East Ė there are just different places to point the finger.

Although many may come here to find work and economic stability there is also the fact that the government here will not kill you for your beliefs. People are safe here with no bombs going off in the streets and a real control over who has a weapon and there are no AK-47-s allowed here at all period so we donít have the mad pack of dogís mindset with rifles in the streets.

I strongly believe that you can judge a country level of social evolution by the way it treats its women and the amount of art they have and the lack of weapons.
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Paul Grimsley
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it would be interesting to see exactly how many immigrants do come to western countries for purely financial reasons and how many for reasons of asylum. i was not talking about "imposing" a framework, Ehsan -- yes, I agree that would be a mistake. I am talking about helping the nascent democratic governments of countries like Afghanistan and Iraq to establish proper footholds in their country -- i don't belive imposing western values would serve anyone. the insensitivity shown to some groups in these countries is not so much cultural ignorance, thought that plays a part, but is motivated by fiscal concerns. governmenst and government policies are bankrolled and dictated by transnationals. transnationals should have prohibitive fines slapped onthem for inadvertently fostering situations where civil unrest can occur -- it could be considered - an i don't know if this term makes any sense - but like a benign terrorism, kind of as manslaughter is to murder, or is this too strong?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit I have no idea what kind of democracy is Ďproperí for a country like Iraq. I canít imagine a democracy founded on religious dogma, where one sect of the same religion preys on the other, where schools teach religion rather than medicine and mathematics. There is a giant vacuum where Iraq used to be, and I believe Iran would love to fill it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Prime Minister of India stood up and said we are going to wipe Pakistan off the face of the earth would that justify a first strike against India by Pakistan or visa versa. This is what Iran has done and now we are hearing that it is inevitable that Iranís nuclear industry will be removed.

We must blame the religious leaders for causing so much hatred among their people. Religion and politics must be separate and the politicians must rule the military and let the religious leaders run the churches, temples, mosques, and synagogues. When religion rules the military there will never be peace because they canít deal with politicians of other nations something that is a must in this global environment.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eshan, a lot of what you said makes sense. The Bush administration is beginning to see they cannot impose a political/social framework on Iraq. Polls show the majority of Americans have lost faith in the president's leadership.

Based on the evidence and what has happened, I agree with you that America should not have invaded Iraq. [But I do believe we should have invaded Afganistan, for many of the reasons others have pointed out.] But we did invade Iraq, and as you said, "America is in deep water." Iraq is a mess. How can it be straightened out without more bloodshed?

Then you go on to say global reasoning demands the U.N.O. should and could control the situation. But then you say the problems of egotism, hegemony, material interests raise their head.

What is the solution?
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:15 am    Post subject: Too Late? Reply with quote

If we look to the history, there were no such terrorist before USSR’s invasion on Afghanistan. The Muslim countries resisted this invasion under the patronage of America. Islam was used as a bait to win the sympathies of the Muslims and to launch a joint war against USSR. America and Pakistan were the major countries to support the Afghanis directly. America supplied arms to Afghanis more than they needed. Guerilla training camps were opened. The Muslims all over the world were attracted to start a holy war against the enemies. Militants like Osama bin Laden were imported and made the heroes of the war. USSR was forced to vacate Afghanistan with a disgraceful defeat. After the departure of USSR, a tribal war was started among the different tribes of Afghanistan. Every tribal lord claimed that it was he who had defeated USSR. Taliban came into power in this conflict. Now America wanted to make Taliban subservient to its wishes. The bullying Taliban refused to follow the dictates of America and a hostility campaign started between America and Afghanitan. Pakistan also became victim in this strife and more than twice Pakistan embassy in Afghanistan was attacked by Taliban. The northern front was however against Taliban. The guerilla camps were turned into terrorist training camps during this time. There is no doubt in it that the Taliban government was the worst kind of govt. in which the human rights were ruthlessly crushed and the women especially fell victim to it. Yet, the alternative, provided by America was not also enviable because it did not enjoy the popular vote and was limited to the Capital Kabul alone. The rest of the area of Afghanistan is under anarchy. Anerica has been forced to remain in Afghanistan in these circimstances to protect the govt. it wants to rule and God knows how long this situation would prevail. The policy of screwing the things is going on and there is no step forward to settle the matters on permanent basis. USSR, now Russia want to take revenge from USA of the defeat caused to it by America and wishes that USA should not be able to come out of this cogmire.

As for the production of poison in the form of heroin in Afghanistan, has it come to an end? Was it not there when Afghanistan was supported by America against USSR. Can America afford to remain there and look after the Afghanistan’s interest for a unlimited period. The successful and artful training of the first guerilla and then terrorist encouraged the militants to test their ability every where they thought it fit. They expanded their boundary to any where in the world recruiting the young simple Muslims and the war was given the name of the Holy War. The attack on American Trade Centre was the first major test of it. This war was not and is not the holy war nor the terrorist have any purpose before them to defend of fight for Islam. They have their own vested motives and they do not spare even the Muslims and the Muslim countries when they are checked or stopped. Pakistan is one of the countries which is hostile to such activities and the President of Pakistan himself has been targeted by these terrorist thrice. The serious mistake which USA and the European countries has made is to treat these terrorist the representatives of the Muslim and Islam which is totally against reality. Indirectly, this mistake has strengthened the terrorists in launching their propaganda that the West, the European and all the Christian world was against the Muslims and Islam. Such mischievous elements were not in dearth in the West as well and the issuance of disgraceful cartoon is one of the examples in this concern. Whatever the causes of the attacks on Afghanistan, the result is going to be same. Afghanistan has been divided and Iraq is going to be divided if the conditions remain the same. These two sores on human body will have their effects and these would expand to different countries of the world, disturbing further the peaceful living.

The Heroin
The production and the processing and its selling is a heinous crime against humanity and it must be rooted out by every means. But, those elements who are helping the selling of this poison in the west are more responsible for its spreading. They earn money, perhaps a lot of it, by making it their flourishing business. They must also be checked and stopped because they are the major vehicle of this business.

The Conflict between the Muslims having different religious belief.

Actually there are no basic differences between the faiths. On the basic, the Muslims are unanimous. The attacks on the religious centers are made by the terrorists (who have no religion) and some times by the agents of the hostile countries giving the impression that one sect of the Muslims has attacked the other.

The killers of the people having different beliefs are not the Muslim countries. These are the terrorist who have no religion. They claim and show to be very devoted Muslim only to deceive the simple Muslims.

The immigrants who go to USA of Europe only due to their disgust from their mother states may be only 5% or even lest.

Paul, no doubt, I spoke of the imposition of the frame work (if we give) but I meant how it would be taken by the locals.

Harry is right in doubting the democracy founded on religious dogmas, but the Muslims believe that Islam is a perfect code of life including political, and may not be interested in western democracies. This is such a discrepancy between the two systems that would never be resolved other than tolerating each other.

Iran Nuclear Capability
There would be no use of attacking Iran, because the nation who has got that capability would still be there. This experiment has already been made in the context of Iraq and what has been achieved out of it. Moreover, there are seven declared states with atomic power and may be more having attained this capability secretly.

Dave

There is a way, seemingly very simple, that some state presents the bill before the Security Council/UNO asking “How to Attain Peace in the World”.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Time will tell Reply with quote

Iran is now a nuclear nation. Time will tell if nuclear waste shows up in western countries in the form of dirty bombs, and if it does I believe that this will be the beginning of the end of the environment as we know it, and Iran and surrounding areas lay to waste. Iran has said it is for the production of electricity. There will be no forgiveness if this material is stolen or sold to any group with mass destruction in mind. If material is stolen it will not be viewed as a theft, it will be viewed as a business deal with the Iranian government as the supplier of this dangerous material that will wipe out land for many thousands of years.

I think that in the west we have a mind set than when a nation says it is going to wipe out another nation that that nation is put under great scrutiny. This may very well turn out to be the most dangerous situation that the Middle East has made to the world.

There is still a very good chance that the Prime Minister will have a level head and not use this as a weapon against the world or a means by which to hold others ransom to their demands if any.

I think the Prime Minister of Iran is just crazy enough to try something like that with out looking at the consequences of a nuclear strike by others with ICBM-s. The fact that Russia and China are in there like dirty shirts looks like another potential build up of these weapons that the world have been trying to get ride of.

If nuclear waste shows up in the west it will not be a matter of where it came from it will be a matter of how long till Iran is removed from this earth.

I hope the people of Iran and surrounding areas have great faith in their government to be telling the truth and nothing but the truth.

Recently we have seen men fire off rocket propelled grenades at small children at a school in Pakistan and any group of people like this do not look at the consequences it is only there for the kill. These are truly men of the devil and some of the most evil people in the world.

I think we have entered an era that will make the cold war look like a school yard fight.
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