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Extremism and Fanaticism
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:54 am    Post subject: Extremism and Fanaticism Reply with quote

Extremism and fanaticism of every kind, in any shape, have their drastic effects on every society. The only way to fight against these evils is the global reasoning. Ehsan Elahi Ehsan.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Extremism and fanaticism are twin evils of certain political and religious organizations. How do you reason with an organization?
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mattt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reason Reply with quote

Dave, you have a fine point. Reasoning with a collective that has its tide determined is like eating concrete to get through a wall to the matter.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:01 pm    Post subject: Extremism and Fanaticism Reply with quote

DaveR and mattt,
Your fears are genuine. The extremism and fanaticism is not only in organizations but also in individuals and states. Apparently it seems paradoxical - extremism,fanaticism on the one hand and reasoning on the other. But we have to keep is mind that the subjects of these two evils are much more less than the objects who are in billions. The extremists and and fanatists select person from the objects and change them to subjects. We have to hold the objects for a while to think cool mindedly to what direction they are being lead to. This is the area in which the global reasoning has to work.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not want to deny fanaticism or extremism to a talented painter, musician or writer. Aren't these qualities evident in the work of Van Gogh, Beethoven and Beckett? Osama Bin Laden has these qualities also, so did Attila the Hun. As the King of Siam once said, 'tis a puzzlement.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ehsan, I think you misunderstood Matt's and my point. My point: Organizations, societies, and religions have more influence on most individuals than reason has. So in order to get rid of the kind of extremism and fanaticism that causes individuals to be intolerant, you have to change those organizations, societies, and religions.

If the organization has more power over an individual than reason has, you must change the organization. How do you change that organization? How do you deal with a collective entity that brainwashes its members? With reason?
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:32 pm    Post subject: Extremism and Fanaticism Reply with quote

DavrR, There is no doubt that Organisatipm. Societies and Religions have more influence on the individual but we cannot say that all of these are extremist and fanatics. There may be a small faction within these who teaches or practices extremism or fanaticism. Moreover, these factions are always fought by their own major factions and most of the times successfully. We cannot say that all organisations, societies and religions have no reason within them.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Extremism and Fanaticism Reply with quote

Harry, excepting Osama bin Laden, what you are talking of is artistic obsession. Of course, without artistic obsession, an artiest cannot reach the high peaks of his art. You will agree that it would look very strange if we say that Van Ghoh and others were extremists or fanatics.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s what I’m suggesting Ehsan. Art, in any form is either imitation or revolution, and the artists I mentioned, (not the despots) were rabid revolutionists and fanatics. They were completely absorbed in their work and oblivious to the pain they caused their family and friends. The difference is in degree I think.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, Harry. Both artistic obsession and political/social fanaticism and extremism can cause pain to others. The funny thing is some art can cause pain to political extremists and vice-versa.

Back to Ehsan's thoughts. I'm not addressing ALL organizations and religious sects only those that require fanatical following of their doctrine. There are plenty of these around the world, including some in the United States, Iraq, and, I suspect, your country. I won't name names, but how do you get an organization or religion to change its doctrine.

I don't think they change. What happens is factions of the organization or religion break-away, but the orthodox group remains. So my question remains: how do you reason with the orthodox factions?
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Extremism and Fanaticism Reply with quote

DaveR and Harry. Thank you both. You have relieved me of the part of the burden. I conclude from your propositions that you agree that extremism and fanaticism have their drastic effect on every sociiety. Now we can concentrate on the second part of the statement that the only way to fight against them is the global reasoning.
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saail ehsan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject: extremism and fanaticism Reply with quote

I do agree with Ehsan's point of view that the only way to fight against extremism and fanaticism is the global reasoning.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's modify what you said, Ehsan.

I, like Harry, say don't fight against the effects of extremist and fanatical artists because that will kill artistic creativity and the production of art.

And I don't agree that you can reason with organizations, cultures, societies, and religions that require individuals to be exteme and fanatical.
And I'm not sure you can reason with the individuals within the organizations, since their minds are beyond reason.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The voice of reason in the face of despotism is not very effective, Ehsan. How would you accomplish such a thing? Can the gazelle reason with the lion. Did Christ reason with Herod? Chamberlain with Hitler? Even Van Gogh's brother Theo couldn't reason Vincent out of his life style in Provence.

Perhaps we're dealing in semantics ... what do you mean by 'reasoning'.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaveR. I agree with you except calling the artists extremists and fanatics.
Harry,
Harry wrote:
The voice of reason in the face of despotism is not very effective, Ehsan.[/guote] I agree Harry with you that direct reasoning with despotism does not work.
[quote="Harry" Can the gazelle reason with the lion. Did Christ reason with Herod? Chamberlain with Hitler? Even Van Gogh's brother Theo couldn't reason Vincent out of his life style in Provence.

Agreed.

harry wrote:
Perhaps we're dealing in semantics ... what do you mean by 'reasoning'.


Reasoning is the intellectual foundation on which the human society must stand with the mutual understanding of the sub-societies to keep a balance in life and its affairs. It is a light that warns against the darkness of extremism and fanaticism and the drastic effects created by them.
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Clive
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:42 pm    Post subject: This is adult inspired Reply with quote

How can one reason with the 14 year old boy that straps on a bomb and entering a school bus? How can a child of that age have this great conviction to a cause? This is adult inspired with promises to a young boy and the many rewards he will receive…

How can this be stopped if reasoning can not begin…
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Extremism and Fanaticism Reply with quote

Clive, I think this is an invitation to DaveR and Harry.
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mattt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm    Post subject: Numbers Reply with quote

I have to agree with Ehsan Elahi Ehsan's stating that the numbers of those wanting safety are greater than those who disrupt it. A long time ago I saw a poet at poetry reading. He was from the city and had moved to the country. I regret that I cannot properly credit him for his work, but I'll quote a line he had written and read to us, about an evening walk in a forest.

"An axe cracks louder in the woods."
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cive, if reasoning won't stop fanaticism, I can think of no other way than force. I don't think fear will work, for fanatics have no fear. I don think love will work, for fanatics are loveless.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:04 pm    Post subject: Fans Reply with quote

dave, you seem to have quite a connection for understanding the fanatical mind... Are you sure you're middle 'o' the road?
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My beliefs may be a little . . . extreme . . . at times. Yet always willing to listen to good alternatives.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"An axe cracks louder in the woods."

Clever. The less the ambient noise, the louder the axe. The effect on the tree is the same.
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Clive
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:10 am    Post subject: Cycle of violence Reply with quote

I was kind of hoping to get a Middle Eastern view point. I do not know why you think that Harry and Dave can provide this better then some one from the reign. We do not get many suicide bombers over here and to speculate on a topic this serious would be faulty.

I will how ever do just that because I believe we need to talk and not skirt issues that are important.

We hear every day in North America that another car bomb and another school bus and restaurant has been blown up and it is no doubt going to cause us to form conclusions with out all the facts – and what I would like to know is what are the demands – I have heard what CNN think they are but there must be more to this then only what they say.

Cycle of violence…

You gave my sister a dirty look so I hit you and you got a bat and destroyed my home so I killed your dog so you killed my daughter so I burned your house down so you killed my mother so I destroyed you family so I was also destroyed…

Neither Individual wanted peace, they wanted revenge. Until the chain of revenge is stopped we will have much unrest…and I think it will evolve to the point that a nuke or biological weapon will hit the States and then we will face Armageddon.

When I turn on the news I see an angry mob shaking guns calling me an infidel and chanting death to America. So what should America do to stop this I fear no North American would be able to answer this.

My faith in humanity is limited by the way this world has presented its self to me.
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, Clive. For Global Reasoning to work, everybody from everywhere must join in the discussion. To begin, every individual must explain his/her position.
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uzmasaail
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Extremism and fanaticism Reply with quote

Life is the name of progress not only materially but mentaly too.Day by day the nature and the life of man is getting complex.When there is created any problem, there are so many solutions too.Man is not a rabbit which can be entrapped easily, and other rabbits see it with wistulf eyes.
Extremism and fanaticism are the diseases of mind and poeple who are gifted by reason must cure it.
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