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Global Reasoning-Tolerance.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m a little afraid of the word tolerance. It suggests an attitude of loftiness in people who use it. “We will permit people of lesser station to live in the corner we direct them to.” Tolerance is a far cry from cooperation and light years from equality.

The countries of the EU are accused of denying people from North Africa the same rights they enjoy in their country. In turn the people of North Africa are accused of denying equal rights to the people of Central Africa in their country. The costume party at the UN still goes on peddling cooperation and understanding, blind to the fact that intolerance is going on all over the world.
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ehsan elahi ehsan
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject: Global Tolerance Reply with quote

Harry you are right to express you fear when you speak of tolerance as opposite to cooperation. Of course cooperation is a better virture, equality much better. But, tolerance is however, better than intolerance. When there is the spirit of tolerance, it can give way to cooperation,love and equality and finally to a peaceful living.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish that were true, Ehsan. So far it hasn't worked that way.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Global Reasoning Reply with quote

Harry, hope is the last shelter for mankind.
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Harry
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's no more than a oatched umbrella, Ehsan - it didn't keep the rain off the 6,000,000 Jews.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Global Reasoning - Tolerance Reply with quote

Harry, hope is the last shelter for mankind where human being can sustain themselves for a while and start searching the new possibilities. If they are only hoping (against hope), then you are right in saying that it is a deceptive.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m sure you’re aware of the term ETHNOCENTRISM, Ehsan. Its the tendency to regard the beliefs, standards, and code of behavior of one's own culture superior to those found in other societies. It’s a form of flag waving and encourages national pride and patriotism on one hand and intolerance on the other, particularly in developed societies. It even led to colonialism in the 19th century.

You would think a common sense ecumenical education would eliminate ethnocentrism in time and make us more tolerant of each other. But it hasn’t, we are as far apart as ever - and if I seem pessimistic at times, it’s because I don’t see us changing for the better. Governments like it this way.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:08 pm    Post subject: Global Reasoning - Tolerance Reply with quote

In easier terms we can call ethocentric the mania of hegemony. No doubt it is a drasted disease but we have to resist it any way.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject: Global Reasoning - Tolerance Reply with quote

When men are delving in deep thoughts, silence prevails.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting forum Clive, thought I'd join in.

While its wonderfully politically correct to say tolerance is a good thing, there are things that must not be tolerated. Greed, hate, fear come to mind. The fact that sixty years after civilized men could no longer tolerated Hitler and his henchmen we still see ethnic cleansing in Europe sickens me. That now that the generation that was traumatized by the sight of concentration camps is now almost past we get a fresh dose of western jingoism to fight the obvious horror the Islamic terrorists would bring us. I don’t know which is worst. They both seems cut from the same cloth. Yet there is a basis for judgment. It’s the difference between the hangman and the murderer. Yes both deprive someone of their life, but why did each do what they did? One to perform their duty - the other for greed.

Wooly headed thinking about tolerance, wishing we could all live in peace, without critical thinking and passing judgment is a fools dream. Yes its easy to hate those we never met, or speak with a funny accent or don’t wear blue jeans or burkas and we must fight the small man in each of us that would create a tyranny based on such small matters. We must never tolerate evil men.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: Global Tolerance Reply with quote

Well said Peter, I've often wondered how far we have really progressed in our so called modern day world. We have the genocide in Europe as you said, plus the AIDS epidemic in Africa, not to mention female mutilation is still being practiced in many cultures mostly African and Middle Eastern; global tolerance? I think not. Evil or Very Mad
If a young woman is still subject to mutilation because someone believes her sexual organs will give her bad thoughts and make her do bad things well, then, I guess it sucks to be human doesn't it? If a woman in China, Japan, or Taiwan can still have her feet bound because they are too big and have arranged marriages (yes both of these things are still practiced, I have my grandmother's shoes to prove it); then where on earth does anyone get off saying we have anything even close to global tolerance? Confused Even if that's what we want how do we go about achieving it? Certainly not with the help of our president who's only done more damage and burned the U.S. bridges with yet another country (good job Mr. President! Rolling Eyes ) but we managed to sabotage yet another ethnic group or groups and destroy yet another unique culture. These people in the Middle East they are not monsters or heathens. For one thing they believe in God just like we do, they just call him Allah instead (which by the way means God in Arabic), they believe in Jesus and the Bible (Qu'ran ring a bell anyone?), they have t.v.'s cell phones, and all the modern technology we do but some of us still refuse to see them as human beings. Why is this? Are we really that self centered and egotistical Shocked I'm afraid that yes, some of us are. Fortunately for us here at Writer's Voice we are all very open minded and we have Eshan, Mira, and JOlanta to give us varying perspectives of different cultures in a good light (THanks for that guys!). Well enough of my ranting. Wink
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DaveR
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gon-shei Was-hei*, Heidi. Well it's Christmas morning here in Los Angeles. The sun is out and it reached 85 degrees (Faren.) yesterday.

<< . . . but we managed to sabotage yet another ethnic group or groups and destroy yet another unique culture. These people in the Middle East they are not monsters or heathens. For one thing they believe in God just like we do, they just call him Allah instead (which by the way means God in Arabic), they believe in Jesus and the Bible (Qu'ran ring a bell anyone?), they have t.v.'s cell phones, and all the modern technology we do but some of us still refuse to see them as human beings. Why is this? Are we really that self centered and egotistical . . .>>

That's a mouthful, but I think most Americans, probably a great majority of us, see most of "them" as human beings. Also, I think most Americans are tolerant when it comes to religion. We couldn't live peacefully in American cities without being religiously tolerant since there are members of so many riligions and cultures here.

Violence in America, now that's another story.

You've got to look at the gray areas, Heidi. Cool


*Heidi, thanks for the language lesson in your Christmas Cards post: May you live longer and prosper and have a happy new year
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:36 pm    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Thanks Dave I try to but sometimes even with the gray areas there are contradictions and nuances that get overlooked. I think that the majority of people as you say, are indeed human but some have worse faults than others well actually that's not true we all have faults. But some are seen as worse by society I think. Which would you rather date/have as a friend/a family member? An egotistical, selfish person who is trying to change their ways or a nice, senstive person who won't change at all? Granted that's looking at it in very black and white terms I admit but it begs the question what do we do with those we love that will never change or refuse to? Such as our family members or significant others? I suppose we just have to put up with them to some extent, perhaps education like there is much of here, is part of it. I wonder what else we can do? I suppose examine all view points, examine the grey areas as you say, be open-minded, tolerant etc. Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:48 am    Post subject: Tolerance Reply with quote

Thanks Heidi for your response.

In your subsequent reply you stated:

“I suppose we just have to put up with them to some extent, perhaps education like there is much of here, is part of it. I wonder what else we can do? I suppose examine all view points, examine the grey areas as you say, be open-minded, tolerant etc. “

Education was to be the materialist’s panacea. All the world’s ills were to be abolished with it. Yet now we live in a sea of information and I do not see much wisdom. On one hand you rant over female circumcision (and rightly so) but then you lament the destruction of yet another culture. But this practice is part of their culture. You can’t have it both ways. Neither can you cherry pick. Face it - some cultures are better than others!

The culture of extremism must be crushed, just like the Nazi culture was. Is this ethnocentrism? Or is it fighting evil. Tolerance might say “One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.” This dilemma of the modern world – by who’s judgment – is the greatest threat to our civilization. In the middle ages we would burn at stake those that would disagree with us, today Islamic terrorists bomb to accomplish the same thing. The world is still using ‘might makes right’ method of solving this problem. And those of us with some humanity are left appalled at this approach.

Don’t be afraid to call a spade a spade. Don’t get caught in the grey zone (examine all viewpoints, etc.). (Hi DaveR) It is this unwillingness to use what brains God gave us to do what’s right that’s what’s really killing us.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject: PeterM, Heidi Reply with quote

Good PeterM,

Citing the bare elements of what we identify and do not tolerate, is necessity. We have more grey areas than knowing and we are too proud of ambivalence.

Ms. Heidi, you are growing beautifully. That is better than good to see. Please continue.

YGGQXG
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Peter, good to have you here.
You said, "Don’t be afraid to call a spade a spade. Don’t get caught in the grey zone (examine all viewpoints, etc.)."

I would modify that to: never be afraid to enter the gray zone. That's what differentiates us from sharks. Just don't hesiitate too long or get trapped in the haze of thought unable to make a decision like our friend Hamlet.

Though, as you say, the culture of extremism must be crushed, just like the Nazi culture and burning at the stake was, suicide bombings, from my point of view, are in a gray area. I see them as a weapon of war, no more cruel or evil than a missle gone astray.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject: response Reply with quote

Thanks for your responses Dave and Peter. I found them both to be interesting and enlightening. I agree with both of you, while is it hard not to get caught in the "grey zone" as Peter put it, I also think that Dave is right we should not be afraid to enter the grey zone either. Peter is also correct in that female circumcision is part of some people's culture, as is the binding of women's feet and many other things us Americans don't often approve of. I suppose that we are all entitled to our opinion but we shouldn't judge them because of it. Who are we to say they are strange when I'm sure they think the same thing of us with our skyscrapers, capitalism, and wars. Perhaps I'm wrong, I wonder what Mira, Jolanata, and Eshan think of all this? They are after all from different cultures perhaps they can shed some more light on this issue from their perspectives. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:46 pm    Post subject: Grey Zone Reply with quote

Thanks Matt – you grok my intent.

Dave – Your right such bombings are just a form of weapon. It is where they’d take us should they win (Pol Pot was a piker) that’s what concerns me. As for grey zones, I agree – don’t be afraid to enter, but neither linger. Our need is for critical thinking that comes to a conclusion based on the evidence, which in turn leads to action.

Heidi – Thank you for your thoughts, keep ‘em up. However….. Wink
Your statement “ I suppose that we are all entitled to our opinion but we shouldn't judge them because of it” is exactly the sentiment we need too avoid. I’m saying we must judge and act accordingly. Might we be wrong? All too often we are. Does that possibility relieve us from our responsibility? Absolutely not! We are stuck with being moral creatures. To not decide is a decision.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Peter, one way to look at how we should approach any decision in life is to say "our need is for critical thinking that comes to a conclusion based on the evidence, which in turn leads to action."

But, on the other hand, the evidence is not always conclusive. We frequently make a decision and take action even though we have incomplete information. Do the terrorists really want to take over our part of the world, or do they want to control only their region and their natural resources? Do fanatical Moslems want to convert Christians and destroy Jews, or do they want only to remove them from the region? Does she love me, or will I make a fool of myself by approaching her? Decisions, decisions.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:08 am    Post subject: glark Reply with quote

If glark can be used in the third person, simple past, we might say that while reading, I glarked your meaning.

I agree that we must make value judgements. I note that we could make efforts to sort what are value judgements, and what are attitudinal statments contrived of fear or propaganda.

What I'm hoping to convey herein, is that sensing an unfair abuse of individuals and their personhood, seems quite acceptable to me. Of course, if this is done just because someone else said so, or the TV said so, the speaker is probably an ignorant ***hole, and under circumstances might react in ways far crueler than those of whom he/she makes a supposition.

A joke about food is a joke. Condemning a group's diet with phrases implying its abnormalcy, is a sign of a dark stupidity, and denotes individuals who have such limited skills that they cannot survive outside a small, dominated, designated region they call their own.

Growing up in various households held at different times by either one of my biological parents, I heard names for people of any group outside the four walls. Those names were not meaning to praise anyone, but were meaning to lessen others, and discount any life they added to life. It was a working plan. It achieved making every person an enemy. (Heaven forbid we make any inference about powerful groups doing any such thing.)

Without our expressions of fear in the forms of propagandizing attacks, we are small, and we might have to critique ourselves. (Of course, that is usually limited to our own, limited sets of skills.)

White people... Do we even have an original diet?

T2YCGE
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: Language Reply with quote

Adding language to the list is bubbling up in me. A behavior I find more obnoxious than many others is an individual's mocking a language for which he/she has no useful knowledge. Often I have witmessed this behavior from those who do not actually know thier own languages. (In that case, we witness the activity of an "inferiority complex", so that case should not be confused with Chomsky's activity relative, "language ego", which is itself, a defensive or offensive mechanism of control exercised by those fearing inadequacy at managing a given situation.)

Yea, ya know, the whole bundle can get rather sickening at times. In a heirarchy, it is somewhere near the limitations a religion can impose on the capabilities of an individual to love or understand others. Most religions cite a God or more. It's goddamned shame that so many individuals rely upon one book of many while they interact with other individuals. It's an absurdity contradicting what is taught. (Once again, fear marches in and gathers forces for taking an upper hand. I don't envision that's end soon, which does support PeterM's realization that value judgements are inherent.)

BE9UW8
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject: language, intolerance Reply with quote

Hey Mira, good debate you've got going here! Glad to hear your voice amongst the usual debaters like Harry, Dave, and Matt. I agree with you completely it's a shame that people make fun of others even when you were a baby you heard these things; as I'm sure many of us did without quite realizing it. My dad's an immigration lawyer and even he slips up sometimes and relapses into stereotyping people or saying they are annoying. Granted ethinicity is part of his daily job so it's more acceptable to mention it and he generally only does it to keep everyone straight. He has a big family from Mexico and Nicaragua (spling?) working in his office one of the daughters is in college in Chicago and the other ones are working at my dad's office, one's got a baby on the way (don't know that gender yet we can't wait to find out) and Roxanna is about my age and is getting ready to start studying at Grandview if she can get enough money for the scholarship they've given her.
While my dad is very open-minded and generous as well as a second generation immigrant himself he can be just as judgmental as anyone else. While he does not judge on race, he judges on racial disharmony and how it affects people (which is good embarrasing sometimes but good). He judges others by what he first sees. I love my dad but the first words out of his mouth when he might my former roommate Carrie were that she had a deformed left hand and she walked with a limp. I'd noticed these things but chose to ignore them. My other roommate walks with a pronounced limp but she doesn't let that stop her from doing pretty much anything she wants(except walking long distances). How judgemental can a person get? I pointed this out to him (well intentioned of course) so what does he do? He says he just happened to notice it he wasn' t trying to be mean or judgemental. Hmm, something's wrong with this picture, don't you think? At any rate enough of my rambling. ttyl Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s good to be home ... good to see global reasoning beating its chest and hurling sweetness and light over the back yard fence.

I like that, Matt ... “Do we even have an original diet?” Bleached flour might be one.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject: Don't Reply with quote

And don't you serve anything with flavor. We won't die of all those diseases of aging as well as we do.

CK26J5
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter wrote:
Quote:
To not decide is a decision


Well, we could observe in Europe riots in Great Britain and France this year. And we can still observe racist attacks in Moscow.
I agree with Peter that we shouldn’t be tolerant in every matter. But what will you do, Peter, as an individual, when governments of rich and highly civilized countries often keep silent (or are correct politically) when in another place in the world evil men rule?
Politics itself is evil.
Our first decision should mean a conscious choice of our politicians, I think (if it is possible at all).

Jolanta
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